This week I wrote about the relation ship between video games and religion. Please note I don't mean to offend anyone. I know this can be a touchy subject with some people.

pressstarttodiscuss.blogspot.com/2012/08...tween-games-and.html

My question is the same one I have at the end of the article: "Why do games tend to be so highly critical of the concept [of religion] (Edit: when compared to other mediums)?"
I'm curious what the people of GF have to say about this.

Edit for clarification: I'm not concerned too much about criticism of the church, in fact I welcome it. I'm not even curious as to why it's get's criticized. A more accurate question is why it is criticize to such a degree in games compared to other media? Games seem to have mostly criticism of religion whereas movies, art, etc. have about equal parts praise and criticism.

You should have mentioned how in Breath of Fire II, the game starts with you losing your dad (the pastor) and sister, then going to town and finding some douchebag church called the church of St. Eva has taken over and no one remembers you. Now, you can either save at the dragon statues or go in Church and have the "luck" of being in church. The religion is pretty much Catholocism, with more emphasis on it's cult-like aspects, to the point that after awhile you're going "Oh, fuck, it's St. Eva again...." Even Ray, one of the recurring characters of the game, is revealed to be a member of the Dragon Clan, but he couldn't say "-YIFF- you, cult! Ima do what I want!" because it was the only life he ever knew. Even as he's dying, he is asking you to create a world where there is a God the people can trust.
I mean, in the end St. Eva is revealed to be a ploy to turn the populace into mindless drones. You even KILL the God, which I find great.
To really answer your question about why games tend to be so highly critical of the concept of religion...
How could they NOT?!
You can't not ignore something when writing a piece of work. People make games with critical views on fantasy, sci-fi, politics, and even something as silly as social networks.
What gives religion a pass? Religion is not NEARLY as interesting as fantasy. It's a joke, if anything, and should be treated as such. Although I'd like to see a game where you the player over-react and take out a religion due to your perceptions of the religion being some evil cult using the prayers of people to revive some demon, or it's lead by a demon, or the religion is a lie, and your actions in the end aren't justified, and you have to deal with the fact that you messed up, even if you got rid of a religion.
Religion deserves to be mocked. It deserves the criticism, because a lot of religions parodied either directly or indirectly, deserve it because they are cults.

I didn't go over Breath of Fire because I've never played it. There were other examples I wanted to include, but I didn't want to belabor the point.

I'm actually agree with you personally with religion and the fact that it needs to be criticized. I would never give it a total pass because in my view no topic isn't worth discussing. Everything should be fair game because very few things in this world are perfect, besides me. XD

I'm just curious because a lot of gamers I know have faith, at least to a certain degree. Media of all forms is a product of our thoughts on the world we live in. If our media is critical of it, then it would make sense that the people would be equally as critical, which I don't see as regularly as I do the devout. This is my attempt to reconcile those two images. Atheism/Agnosticism is still in the minority. Most people don't question the church, at least not significantly.

I find fantasy a lot more interesting than faith. At least fantasy is honest with itself. I don't find Catholocism fun, but Greek religion? If Zeus and his brothers and children did more, I would be killing boars left and right for him or whatever he wanted me to do. Why? Because that'd be AWESOME. Except... I would want to be a demi-God.
I think the reason why people even invest in religion is due to... Fear, I think is the best way to word it. I find religion fun to write on, and create my own cults in my own stories. I feel especially inspired by the True Eye cult in the original Dead Rising.
If i am a devout anything, I am a devout reader. Especially when it comes to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I find it sad how so many people would be OFFENDED if Steel Ball Run got translated. Let me tell you right now, one of the main focuses of the story is a race across the US to get Jesus Christ's body parts. Now, these body parts make the people owning them super over powered. I would think that would make annoying cul-I mean, respectable Catholics would really only be offended if the body parts did NOTHING.
Anyways, I love atheists and... people like myself. We point out the issues with religion, like some INTERESTING things about Noah's Arc, and silly things that just go hand in hand with religion. Although I'm sorry to say it, Atheism is a religion too. I hope you can see why I say so. I personally don't have a religion, which confuses people, and I always tell them this:
You don't need to have a religion.

What I find fascinating about Greek (and Roman or Norse) mythology is that they seemed to understand that their gods were a bunch of dicks, even if they tried to do right.

I would agree that fear is a part, but I would argue that it is more a lack of understanding. Humans are curious creatures and wish to understand the world and how it works. Without good science, it's natural for charismatic figures to find their answers in deities and attract follows and believers.

I believe in the possibility that a god might exist, but I do not adhere the concept of organized religion. I feel religion is far too easy to corrupt, even if it's adherents mean well. It's okay to let it guide your thinking, but ultimately you must be the one to think for yourself and analyze things critically.

enigma530 wrote: I find it funny how Izanagi and Izanami are a lot like the Catholic God (all "perfect" and having the personality of a rock) but their kids are much more like the Greek Gods. Well, the Catholic God is actually a crazy control freak, as opposed to a dull rock of a deity who upholds strong moral values. That's why I feel a lot of games using the "Oh, look at me, I'm a deity and how dare YOU oppose ME!" is a direct shot at the Catholic God, especially since, unless you piss the God off, it has no personality to speak of. It's just... There, for people to bow to.
That's why I really like the Greek Gods. They just have so much personality to them. Which REALLY amplifies my issues with their portrayal in God of War. You really didn't need Kratos to get some box to get the Gods to lose their crap. Maybe the game writers should have put in some effort with their research.
Religion is the first soap opera, especially Greek religion.
You get a lot of good drama from it, not to mention all the imagination shown in origins of things as shown through it are great inspirations. It being religion, of course.
If a game wants to see how to write religion into their story write, they should read Pantheon High. That manga does it so right it's pretty much smacking Percy Jackson and The Bible with it's PWN hand.

Speaking of Izanami and Izanagi, I would have probably cited Shin Megami Tensei (pretty much all of Shin Megami Tensei) as examples if I had more than a passing familiarity with he games beyond the Persona franchise. They really tear religion apart in those games. God exists, but he's a complete dick.

The Persona and Shin Megami Tensei franchises really have a great take on religious deities. Especially Persona, which says that teens have these deities as their persona, a representation of themselves...
Don't you know anything about religion?
Almost every God is a complete dick.

Of course, in Persona, these gods are usually born from humanities collective unconscious. In fact, every single problem in the Persona series is caused by the doubts and fears in the minds of people if you think about it.

It's very fascinating. The games are good at analyzing the human condition and how religion gets formed by humanity.

enigma530 wrote: What really makes the games fascinating is how in Persona 1, the kids would say things like "My Persona is the goddess -insert name here-... How amazing!" I love how the kids usually have the personalities of the God personas they have. For example, Yosuke is a lot like Susano-o in his joker-like personality, but his tendency to think up great plans. I especially like how in Persona 4, the protagonist starts out with Izanagi, a dull (in terms of personality) but duty-driven God who has a kind heart. Then the Wild Card ability comes in, showing how your ability to establish his own personality really comes into play.
Except the Persona 4 protagonist is apparently weaker than the Persona 3 one. Anyways, I think religion is good to have in games, especially if you want to create your own established world, you'll want an established religion for that world. I think if done properly, the religion is a welcome addition to the game. But in the case of a game, like, say, God of War or something like the Percy Jackson series, which either re-establishes Gods or really touches the tip of the iceberg with some Gods because they want to focus on others or it's just... They never read beyond their fifth grade readings.
I know, I bring up God of War a lot, but I love Greek Mythology. The lack of effort put into the mythology and instead making them "The People Kratos Beats Up~!" is a huge middle finger to SCE Santa Monica Studio and Sony. Well, it would be if I didn't have flippers.
I know you haven't played it, but Breath of Fire II might as well have called The Church of St. Eva, the Catholic Church. I love that they didn't, though, and while it's quite obvious Breath of Fire is (unintentionally) making a shot at Catholicism, I was much more interested in the Dragon Clans.
I don't know if you've played this, but the Chantry in the Dragon Age series is very interesting. The story behind it, and how open it is about converting people to their religion, to the point the Chantry looks at people not a part of their religion, and looks down greatly on them (especially if they aren't human). I find that hilarious.

Apparently, the reason Persona 3's lead is stronger is because death was sealed inside him, giving him powers other people don't have. Apparently the blessing from Izanami simply isn't as powerful.

I agree. A very good religion helps with immersion into the world. Like the Divines in Skyrim. (The Elder Scrolls has a very deep lore. Shame the Bethesda doesn't tap into it enough.)

Dragon Age: Origins is on my list. I bought it during the Steam Sales. I don't know if my computer is strong to play it, but I know that I will eventually have a strong enough rig if it isn't.
Right now though, I'm playing Thief 2. The Hammerites from Thief serve as the religious zealots. "By the Builder's HAND!"

enigma530 wrote: The protagonist of Persona 3 got more than just a blessing. He got a chunk of power!

I guess.... .o.

Play it. See if you can not hate the Chantry.

Two things, I think , are at the center of this:

One: For the longest time, Nintendo was one of the largest distributor of games and RPGs in the early 80s and early 90s, and one of NOA's localization policies essentially excluded any religious representations, especially potentially offensive ones. For the longest time, a lot of games from other companies followed that guideline as well-- after all, the "Dungeons and Dragons Are Of The Devil!" scare that started in the late 70s still had some steam left by the mid-80s. You didn't really get many games tackling religion in a less-than-flattering way until the 90s.

Two: Once the first hurdle was past, religion provides an excellent source of conflict. The existence of religious dogma means you have ready-made villains. Why? Dogma is essentially an axiomatic principle that can't be discussed or debated, it must be believed as-is or else you commit heresy. That is an instant framework to create two different sides... it's also more clear-cut than creating a political divide where you might have to spend a lot of time explaining different political and diplomatic nuances. While some people might know Lord Nobugana's campaigns and their intricacies like the back of their hand, virtually everybody is familiar with the concept of "My god demands this- if you refuse, you are a sinner and must be punished for it!"- which can essentially sum up the four/five hundred years of the Dark Ages that followed after the collapse of Rome. Even today, that mentality is alive and well in many parts of the world, including pockets of ours. The theme of individual lives being destroyed by Dogma is not as alien as the theme of political intrigue, and so while it provides an instant source of conflict, it also provides a familiar conflict as well.

Oh yeah, the good old Dungeons and Dragons' freakout. Back when religious nuts decided to stop freaking out about moosic. Maybe it's my own view points, but I see no positive side to religion other than at the end of a shitty day, it's good to have some kind of faith to prevent yourself from losing it's mind. Although I'd really like a game to have a scenario like the one I stated earlier, where it's your character's own perceptions considering the religion evil, not the actual religion itself with some demon leader.

Well, of course everyone is familiar with it. A certain employee at a certain fast food chain mentioned it a while ago and certain religious people dined like hungry homeless people at that fast food chain. Religion is too easy not to make fun of.

Well, I'm personally a bona fide atheist, so my own stance on religion is that I don't have one. Metaphysically, the potential existence of god poses a paradox that can't be resolved-- such as the violation of the law of identity... and also the famous problem of evil, as nailed by Epicurus.

merryjest wrote: But... God is evil. :c
And your religion proves it.